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Emma's school just called to inform me she was absent today and that
she should bring an excuse tomorrow. How do you think "Watching Civil War in lieu of your busy work" would go over? LOL
I really liked this movie. Although I liked many things about Age of Ultron, I had problems with the pacing, and it wasn't as tight and cohesive a movie as The Avengers. I think Civil War is much better than Age of Ultron, on par with The Avengers and the other Captain America movies.
I think what I like most about the movie is that the central conflict is one that I can't solve from the arm chair. I see pros and cons for both decisions, and I don't know what I would think is right if I were in that world.
On Steve's side, I completely understand his reluctance to sign these Accords. In the MCU, government is so often corrupt. He is absolutely right that they would be used to further political agendas, that at some point they'd be sent to do something they (or at least some of them) disagreed with or not allowed to do something they felt important. Time is also a factor. If the big bad falls through a portal over New York City, how long will the UN take to green light their participation? I also think Ross (who is not General Ross of Hulk back story fame, right? or is it the same character?) talking about Thor and Banner as if they are misplaced weapons, as if they are dangerous items rather than sentient beings, was a hot button point for him. Because if Thor is just a misplaced nuke, if Banner is just a misplaced nuke, then what is Steve? What is Tony? What are the rest of them? Weapons, not people. Commodities.
And yet, I see Tony's side as well. If I were an average citizen or a government official anywhere in the world, the idea of people with seemingly unlimited resources and power and abilities would be extremely frightening. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Just because we the viewer know that Steve is a good guy and Vision is a good guy and Clint is a good guy does not mean Average Jane and Joe can trust that. Plus, Steve's insistence that the Avengers, and he in particular, are the moral compass is, frankly, bullshit. Steve has the luxury of never being possessed or mind controlled and never making the wrong decision; he's just one uninterrupted and glorious lifetime of loyalty and courage and doing the right thing. Yet he's one intimate adventure with Loki's spear away from betraying everything he believes in. Tony knows that he's just one ego-trip away from destroying the world because that almost happened last movie. The Avengers shouldn't be allowed to operate with impunity.
I felt really badly for Tony in this movie because it's really about the dissolution of his family. He lost his parents when he was young (rock on the bb!RDJ CGI). He's lost Pepper, and now he's lost the family he so painstakingly built. MCU Tony and Steve are apparently more antagonistic than they are in the comics; they've never been BFF onscreen. So I loved it when Tony said that he wants to punch Cap in his perfect teeth sometimes but he also wants him to stay. Tony and Steve don't always get along, but Steve matters to Tony. They're family. A very important member of his family, Rhodey, is also injured in the movie, and Tony feels a great deal of guilt for that even though Rhodey doesn't blame him.
I think the villain in this movie is the most diabolical of all the villains we've seen so far because he doesn't want to rule the world, he doesn't want power or wealth. He wants vengeance. He wants the impossible: he wants to hurt the people who hurt him enough to make up for the loss of his family. And when he turns the Avengers against each other, and it's so heart wrenching to watch. That's why I find the theme of vengeance, both being consumed by it and deliberately turning away from it, so compelling. Black Panther's choice not to be consumed by his need for revenge was one of the best moments of the movie for me.
I have a theory about why Tony brings Spidey (the most painfully young Spidey we've seen onscreen so far, too) to the fight. (And I will refrain from mentioning how sad I am that America did not take to Andrew Garfield as Spidey because he was my platonic ideal of Spider Man.) None of them really want to hurt each other. Clint and Natasha are fighting, but they're not going to kill each other; that's clear. Sam and Rhodey are on opposite sides, but the second Sam realizes Rhodey is hit, he hightails it over there to try and catch him. The stakes are high, and they're doing damage, but nobody wants to kill anybody except Black Panther. I think Tony brings Spidey in as a legitimate player but also as a kind of reality check: Hey, I brought a kid! Please, remember how we don't want to kill each other!
I liked Bucky and Steve's relationship in the movie. I like that Bucky clearly wasn't drooling and needing Steve to feed him applesauce or referring to himself in third person as The Asset. Bucky's doing his thing and living a life and he's a bit fuzzy on the details but he doesn't need a higher level of care than my three year old. I love that the two of them are it for each other; to the end of the line, indeed. And I think Bucky's decision to go on ice was for the best. He knows who he is now; he knows how precarious his control over himself is (because vengeful dudes are assholes), and he doesn't want to hurt anyone else.
In random notes of glee, I loved every second of Ant Man and Spidey's battle prattle. Natasha was exquisitely beautiful the entire movie as was Wanda. Vision's obvious crush on Wanda was awesome. Everything about Black Panther rocked (awesome costume). Natasha letting Steve and Bucky leave was awesome. Sam is kinda becoming my favorite.
I miss Pepper. I miss Bruce. I miss Jane and Darcy and Thor. And Coulson (surely the ball's gotta drop on that soon, yes?). But this was an excellent, excellent movie.
Here's the fic I want to read: (I don't really think this is in character for them, but I want to read it anyway.) When handed the Accords, the Avengers as a unit say, "Okey dokey. We're off to Asgard. Y'all handle this shit." And maybe Tony gives a speech about how there's eight other realms to defend, and they go take care of business elsewhere for a few years and leave Earth to defend herself. And maybe Earth begs them back, maybe not. IDK Just a hankering. Lemme know if you see anything like that.
I really liked this movie. Although I liked many things about Age of Ultron, I had problems with the pacing, and it wasn't as tight and cohesive a movie as The Avengers. I think Civil War is much better than Age of Ultron, on par with The Avengers and the other Captain America movies.
I think what I like most about the movie is that the central conflict is one that I can't solve from the arm chair. I see pros and cons for both decisions, and I don't know what I would think is right if I were in that world.
On Steve's side, I completely understand his reluctance to sign these Accords. In the MCU, government is so often corrupt. He is absolutely right that they would be used to further political agendas, that at some point they'd be sent to do something they (or at least some of them) disagreed with or not allowed to do something they felt important. Time is also a factor. If the big bad falls through a portal over New York City, how long will the UN take to green light their participation? I also think Ross (who is not General Ross of Hulk back story fame, right? or is it the same character?) talking about Thor and Banner as if they are misplaced weapons, as if they are dangerous items rather than sentient beings, was a hot button point for him. Because if Thor is just a misplaced nuke, if Banner is just a misplaced nuke, then what is Steve? What is Tony? What are the rest of them? Weapons, not people. Commodities.
And yet, I see Tony's side as well. If I were an average citizen or a government official anywhere in the world, the idea of people with seemingly unlimited resources and power and abilities would be extremely frightening. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Just because we the viewer know that Steve is a good guy and Vision is a good guy and Clint is a good guy does not mean Average Jane and Joe can trust that. Plus, Steve's insistence that the Avengers, and he in particular, are the moral compass is, frankly, bullshit. Steve has the luxury of never being possessed or mind controlled and never making the wrong decision; he's just one uninterrupted and glorious lifetime of loyalty and courage and doing the right thing. Yet he's one intimate adventure with Loki's spear away from betraying everything he believes in. Tony knows that he's just one ego-trip away from destroying the world because that almost happened last movie. The Avengers shouldn't be allowed to operate with impunity.
I felt really badly for Tony in this movie because it's really about the dissolution of his family. He lost his parents when he was young (rock on the bb!RDJ CGI). He's lost Pepper, and now he's lost the family he so painstakingly built. MCU Tony and Steve are apparently more antagonistic than they are in the comics; they've never been BFF onscreen. So I loved it when Tony said that he wants to punch Cap in his perfect teeth sometimes but he also wants him to stay. Tony and Steve don't always get along, but Steve matters to Tony. They're family. A very important member of his family, Rhodey, is also injured in the movie, and Tony feels a great deal of guilt for that even though Rhodey doesn't blame him.
I think the villain in this movie is the most diabolical of all the villains we've seen so far because he doesn't want to rule the world, he doesn't want power or wealth. He wants vengeance. He wants the impossible: he wants to hurt the people who hurt him enough to make up for the loss of his family. And when he turns the Avengers against each other, and it's so heart wrenching to watch. That's why I find the theme of vengeance, both being consumed by it and deliberately turning away from it, so compelling. Black Panther's choice not to be consumed by his need for revenge was one of the best moments of the movie for me.
I have a theory about why Tony brings Spidey (the most painfully young Spidey we've seen onscreen so far, too) to the fight. (And I will refrain from mentioning how sad I am that America did not take to Andrew Garfield as Spidey because he was my platonic ideal of Spider Man.) None of them really want to hurt each other. Clint and Natasha are fighting, but they're not going to kill each other; that's clear. Sam and Rhodey are on opposite sides, but the second Sam realizes Rhodey is hit, he hightails it over there to try and catch him. The stakes are high, and they're doing damage, but nobody wants to kill anybody except Black Panther. I think Tony brings Spidey in as a legitimate player but also as a kind of reality check: Hey, I brought a kid! Please, remember how we don't want to kill each other!
I liked Bucky and Steve's relationship in the movie. I like that Bucky clearly wasn't drooling and needing Steve to feed him applesauce or referring to himself in third person as The Asset. Bucky's doing his thing and living a life and he's a bit fuzzy on the details but he doesn't need a higher level of care than my three year old. I love that the two of them are it for each other; to the end of the line, indeed. And I think Bucky's decision to go on ice was for the best. He knows who he is now; he knows how precarious his control over himself is (because vengeful dudes are assholes), and he doesn't want to hurt anyone else.
In random notes of glee, I loved every second of Ant Man and Spidey's battle prattle. Natasha was exquisitely beautiful the entire movie as was Wanda. Vision's obvious crush on Wanda was awesome. Everything about Black Panther rocked (awesome costume). Natasha letting Steve and Bucky leave was awesome. Sam is kinda becoming my favorite.
I miss Pepper. I miss Bruce. I miss Jane and Darcy and Thor. And Coulson (surely the ball's gotta drop on that soon, yes?). But this was an excellent, excellent movie.
Here's the fic I want to read: (I don't really think this is in character for them, but I want to read it anyway.) When handed the Accords, the Avengers as a unit say, "Okey dokey. We're off to Asgard. Y'all handle this shit." And maybe Tony gives a speech about how there's eight other realms to defend, and they go take care of business elsewhere for a few years and leave Earth to defend herself. And maybe Earth begs them back, maybe not. IDK Just a hankering. Lemme know if you see anything like that.
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I KNEW I LIKED YOU.
Also I want the Black Panther movie freaking NOW NOW NOW. NOW. I have to wait at least a year and a half?!
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Sam is kinda becoming my favorite.
\o/
GLOMP!
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So much love for Sam.
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I'm not saying that it doesn't fit the general narrative of good intentions gone awry, but it's an *awfully* gendered way of expressing that, and Wanda never really got to be angry that Vision felt he had the right to do this to her. (Steve got that beat on her behalf, which isn't exactly great either.)
I will admit that I'm reacting at least a little to the potential Wanda/Vision romantic relationship that exists in potential. If they do actually confront the fact that he did this to her, or that they don't actually move Wanda and Vision to a relationship (I've seen someone say that the Russos have said the Civil War is a ship-killer for Wanda/Vision, but I haven't seen the quote myself), then fair enough. But if they go from this to a dramatic kiss between Wanda and Vision without doing at least some work to address the problems, then I'll be a little tetchy.
Edit: One nice thing I like is that the movie immediately demonstrates some of the pitfalls of both sides. The pitfall of Cap's side is fairly obvious - he jumps in and beats up some cops.
But on the pro-Accord side, their first act is to pull back the Avengers so a government kill squad can go in and assassinate someone without a trial, even though between Tony, Nat and Rhodey, they could have easily gone in there themselves and stood a much better chance of no friendly casualties and also bringing Bucky in alive, even if he was in brainwashed assassin mode. (And their second act, as stated above, is to imprison Wanda without a trial for deciding 'wrong'.)
Also - yes, Ross is the same character who tried to hunt down the Hulk. (For dissection so he could make supersoldiers. Also responsible for the Abomination that tore through Harlem.)
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It's like the difference between Thor and his dad. Thor doesn't think he's better than Jane and Tony or Steve or whatever, but Odin thinks they're bugs. Vision doesn't think people are bugs; he likes humanity. But he thinks he's about as far above us as Odin does.
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Ross is the same character. Wow. That's beyond the pale. Regardless of what any of them think, signing on to a project led by Ross after what he did to Bruce is unthinkable. Surely they know. Even if Bruce never said, surely SHIELD knew, Fury knew. It doesn't matter what Ross says he's doing, by the end of the movie, he's got a floating prison full of superheroes that he can experiment on for as long as he likes. 117 countries might have signed the Accords, but Ross is the warden.
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IIRC in Avengers they've all seen Bruce's file. So they all knew. It is FUCKING BIZARRE that Steve doesn't go "General Ross?" and flip out. Ditto Tony. Everyone. It was such a major fucking misstep.
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Regardless, they - all men - feel they need - and have the right - to exert control over the only powered woman who doesn't sign up to follow them of her own accord without informing her of that fact. (Something they don't do for any of the powered men who likewise don't sign up.)
Oh, yes. Ross is entirely intended to be something of a dark side to the Accords. After all, part of signing up is that they no longer have control over who is put in charge of them. I've also seen the interesting point that he is also one of the few people with experience in hunting supers down. And possibly also an implicit threat - this is a man who can hunt anyone who doesn't sign up and then causes trouble. Certainly Tony doesn't take this threat lightly, which is why he's so frantic to bring Bucky and Steve in before the deadline expires and Ross sends his own forces in.
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On a related note, I've seen some interesting thoughts that one of the continuing themes running throughout the MCU is superheroes and the scramble by the existing powers that be to maintain top dog status.
Iron Man - first modern hero that publicly rejects the authority of the powers that be.
Iron Man 2 - various governments try to break Tony's monopoly on powered armour. Failure.
Incredible Hulk - rather than leave Banner to his own peaceful devices, the US Army pursues him in an effort to restrict his power as a free agent, and also so they can replicate it safely under their control. Failure.
Thor - The powers that be realise that there is a greater universe out there, with even more things that they don't control.
Avengers - Which leads to the attempted creation of Phase 2 weaponry using the Tesseract, which goes badly wrong. Worse, the Avengers are now popular heroes, limiting how much the powers that be can publicly move against them.
Captain America: The Winter Soldier - So they create the orbital helicarriers instead. And note that these are focussed towards the planet, rather than away, which would make them an excellent weapon to dispose of any troublesome powered individuals. But it goes wrong. SHIELD - the only existing main counter to powered individuals that the powers that be have - is destroyed, and Black Widow (amongst others) publicly flaunts the fact that the powers that be can't touch the Avengers.
Avengers: Age of Ultron - And then Sokovia happens. In the aftermath of this disaster, the Avengers' image is tarnished, finally allowing the powers that be the chance to start moving against them. Note that - given the size of the Accords - they must have had them prepared before Lagos. There is no way that sizeable book was assembled in three days.
Edit: I will admit I have a certain urge to write a fic wherein Wanda travels across the world after Civil War, using her powers to do random acts of good whereever she goes. It's not the wise choice, exposing herself, leaving the protection of the others, but she can't remain locked up again, another prisoner, however well meaning her jailors. And what use are her powers if she make some lives better with them, after all they've cost?
Possibly of a form where I weave between the news stories that she leaves behind her and small incidents as she experiences them. (And maybe have some femslash in there, maybe not.)
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Ah. Okay. I think I see what the disconnect for me was. *Ross and his ilk* think she's dangerous and want her under lock and key; Vision and Tony don't want him to imprison her and so undertake the duty themselves. Maybe when Vision says his line about them fearing her if she leaves he means that if she does, Ross will control the narrative about her, paint her as a villain and leave her unable to counter his claims.
OMG I have to watch this again.
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/I also think Ross (who is not General Ross of Hulk back story fame, right? or is it the same character?)/ - Well, he's the same actor so I guess yes?
/I felt really badly for Tony in this movie because it's really about the dissolution of his family./ - Ouch, you're right.
/MCU Tony and Steve are apparently more antagonistic than they are in the comics; they've never been BFF onscreen./ - Well, at least I can finally buy them as friends rather than mere co-workers. ;)
/And I will refrain from mentioning how sad I am that America did not take to Andrew Garfield as Spidey because he was my platonic ideal of Spider Man./ - Oh, boy, Andrew Garfield was the absolute best! *_*
/I think Tony brings Spidey in as a legitimate player but also as a kind of reality check: Hey, I brought a kid! Please, remember how we don't want to kill each other!/ - Oh, interesting, haven't thought about it that way.
To me Peter and Hank's involvement seemed to highlight how both sides have dragged people into the fight thanks to a manipulation of some kind: Hank joined Cap's side because of Steve's personal charisma, simply because Captain America asked him to and Peter because of Tony's money and influence (which is another kind of superpower, of course). In a way, it's another kind of unchecked power from those two superheroes.
Also, at least this time we got a valid excuse for Pepper not being there?
And I'd really like to see the ball drop on Coulson too but I don't think we ever will? It's like Doctor Who and its spin-off shows. The Doctor could crossover to Sarah Jane Adventures because it was aimed to a younger audience but he couldn't do the same with mature-rated Torchwood. I feel like Agents of Shield can and wants to feature crossovers with the movies but the reverse will never be true...
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Yay for another Andrew Garfield fan. *high five*
That's a great point about why Spidey and Ant Man show up. Tony and Steve are like forces of nature. Saying no to either of them would be very difficult.
I think you're probably right about the crossover potential between MCU and AoS, but Coulson was in so many movies that it makes me sad to think they won't ever bring him back, for a cameo even.
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/Tony and Steve are like forces of nature./ - LOL, that's true.
And, yes, part of me is sad too about Coulson, even if I've since given up on the show... (I watched until the last couple of episodes I guess and then I got overwhelmed by how bored I felt and how disinterested I'd grow in their increasingly weird plot-lines)
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Me, too.
RE: Why Vision kept Wanda in the compound (from comments below), I thought he was protecting her from reprisals, too. He was being all "I'm better than humanity" about it, sure, I can see that. He also came off as bumbling as hell in his trying to behave like a human.
I agree; I also thought he was being irresponsible for the same reasons. Peter is a *kid*. I always wondered how the various superheroes knew how to fight with the different levels of strength and ability. For instance, when cutting through a building or ship full of fully-geared up military types -- who are standard humans -- how hard does Captain America hit? Verses, say, hitting Iron Man? And this is for all the superheros. That always bugged me. So, bringing in Peter, how much did Tony know about his powers and strength -- and weaknesses?
The pacing and balance of this movie was excellent. I really admire that. And it's so much fun to talk about and pull apart.
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He waffled on a lot about how he didn't want people to fear Wanda and by implication that if she left they would, which certainly suggests he foresaw some kind of incident of other if she did so. Not hard to guess given that Tony (or possibly Ross, through Tony) had - unbeknownst to Wanda - given Vision orders to confine Wanda to quarters, forcibly if necessary. And certainly from what we see in the film, he followed whatever orders he was given, so regardless of what he said, it seems likely he was there to forcibly imprison Wanda in the apartment because that was what he was told to do. He'd already lied by omission once - about imprisoning her at all - so it's easy to believe that he'd lie by omission again - yes, he thinks it's a bad idea if she leaves, but he's been given orders by Tony to confine her.
We know that he had been given orders by *someone* because of the scene between Tony and Steve, where he's trying to convince Steve to sign, but it blows up when Steve finds out about Wanda's confinement. Tony never denies that the orders to confine her have been given, saying something like 'she's a foreign national who's a walking WMD' which is... dubious reasoning at its best. (If the US was really that worried about it, she could always be deported to the EU. They don't, because they want to maintain as much control as possible over her.)
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I wonder if anyone who watched Civil War but none of the previous Marvel movies had any idea whatsoever about what was going on. Then again, I doubt that any person watching Civil War skipped all the previous Marvel movies, so...
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It occurs that Tony might see himself in Peter, as the genius orphan kid. But still. Taking him to the fight? Bad form, Iron Man.
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Actually, clicking on WHIH on the link gives a list of other videos, 5 of which appear to be Civil War related. (The others appear to be Ant-Man related. By the way, I'm totally head-canoning that Wasp helped Cap in the Raft breakout, giving Ant-Man a very exasperated 'I let you out of my sight for five minutes and you end up in prison' kind of look.)
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Oh, BTW, have you ever read this story from Christine Everheart's POV: http://archiveofourown.org/works/85982
Sooooo, good.
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